| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SvenC |
Posted - May 04 2009 : 1:28:56 PM
Hi,
just installed VAX 1724 on my new Windows 7 RC installations (work PC x64 and home laptop x86).
Both do not work well with Visual C++ 6 when it comes to the intellisense drop down lists:
In a source file start typing so that an intellisense list opens.
Try to move the selection with the cursor up/down keys and see that the list is closed and instead the cursors moves in the source text.
This did work on Windows 7 beta but not with the release candidate any more. (I bugged this earlier on an intermediate Windows 7 version, but we decided to wait for the next offically available Windows 7 version - now it is available from MSDN/Technet and tomorrow for general public download)
Can you repro that? And even better, fix it?
Here are my current VAX settings:
VA_X.dll file version 10.5.1724.0 built 2009.05.01
MSDev.exe version 6.0.9782.2
Devshl.dll version 6.0.9782.0
Devedit.pkg version 6.0.9782.0
Font: Courier New 15(Pixels)
Comctl32.dll version 5.82.7100.0
Windows 7 6.1 Build 7100
4 processors (x86-64;
WOW64)
Platform: Win32 (x86)
Stable Includes:
V:\\PROGRAM FILES\\MICROSOFT SDK\\INCLUDE;
V:\\PROGRAM FILES\\MICROSOFT SDK\\INCLUDE\\MFC;
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\INCLUDE;
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\MFC\\INCLUDE;
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\ATL\\INCLUDE;
Other Includes:
Stable Source Directories:
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\MFC\\SRC;
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\MFC\\INCLUDE;
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\ATL\\INCLUDE;
C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio\\VC98\\CRT\\SRC;
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| support |
Posted - Aug 22 2009 : 7:10:57 PM
As SvenC pointed out, case=26657 is fixed in build 1731 |
| SvenC |
Posted - Aug 20 2009 : 07:56:13 AM
VAX 1731 works in VC6 on Win7. Did I mention: wholetomato, you never let me down so far!!!
Great work, for years! |
| SvenC |
Posted - Aug 05 2009 : 4:58:34 PM
Sean, that is great news! Thanks a lot!!! |
| sean |
Posted - Aug 05 2009 : 4:27:16 PM
We have identified the problem. It will be fixed in the current release cycle. |
| SvenC |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 04:58:26 AM
As Microsoft released the RTM hashes I could not wait any longer 
And here is the result: VAX 1727 in VC6 SP6 on Windows 7 RTM *does not* work!
The problem is: when the intellisense combo boxes pop up and you try to navigate with cursor keys up/down the combobox is closed and the cursor is moved in the source code instead.
Please, do look at your code running in VC6 as soon as possible. No matter if running Win7 RC or Win7 RTM, there is no change in the Windows 7 code change (from beta to rc and rtm) that caused VAX to stop working properly in VC6.
Lots of devs will switch to Win7 on or shortly after August 6th and VAX is so popular that lots of those devs who still (have to) use VC6 for old stuff will see that VAX stopps working for them. Would be nice if that VAX-is-not-working-period is as short as possible. |
| SvenC |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 1:11:21 PM
Just two more weeks and us MSDN/Technet subscribers will know how Windows 7 RTM, VC6 and VAX do work together - can't wait to check it out  |
| sean |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 5:30:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SvenC
@sean: I am a bit surprised to read how easily you point a well argumenting customer to your refund services *first* and only later try to give a small bit of hope for at least looking at the problem. The only reason I can think of for this kind of reaction is way too much pressure. I am sorry for that. But please try to stay positive with us, your customers.
I'm hopeful we'll be able to take care of it.
We aren't ready to shut the door on VC6. I suspect that when the time comes, part of the decision will be driven by whether or not Microsoft achieves its "10 is the new 6" vision.
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| SvenC |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 12:34:04 PM
Hi feline,
thanks for answering so detailed. Both sides have valid arguments.
I am tempted to say that I think that Win7 will not change in this implementation detail as Microsoft is already in a dev mode where almost nothing changes any more. But there is "I think" and not "I know"... So I don't say it 
The hooking stuff is of course difficult and fragile - there is just this feeling that it should not be too hard for a dev to add some debugging output at that point in code where your combo box is opened/closed to get a clue what is going on and how hard a fix might be. But again: fixing other peoples bugs in a thought might be easier than doing it physically...
So another few weeks to wait, until we can check this issue with Win7 RTM. Fingers crossed...
quote:
Originally posted by feline
Win7 contains a "transparent" form of VM for running older programs under winXP. I have not tested this myself, but it might be worth looking into, at least for some people, but SvenC you have already said this won't work for you.
It is just the next version of Virtual PC shipped with a preconfigured WinXP and a feature available in VMWare workstation as well, were you can visualize a single application window of a guest system directly in your host desktop. So it looks like that app is running directly on the host, but it is really executed in the guest VM. So performance of those apps is of course reduced compared to directly running it on your host.
I do the same when it comes to testing my installed apps on different systems. But the dev IDE is always on my host and I remote debug into the guest VM. |
| feline |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 12:08:29 PM
SvenC, the point I am working towards is that one day, in the far future, VA is going to stop supporting VC6. This is probably many years away, but at some point continuing to support an IDE that Microsoft no longer support, and don't even let you download is going to become more trouble than it is worth. At the same time stopping supporting an IDE that Microsoft themselves still support is clearly a bad idea. So Microsoft's level of support for an IDE is one of many factors to consider.
Running inside a VM, I do 98% of my work inside VM's, so I know all about the benefits and the problems of this approach. That is a different discussion though
Win7 contains a "transparent" form of VM for running older programs under winXP. I have not tested this myself, but it might be worth looking into, at least for some people, but SvenC you have already said this won't work for you.
Lets be fair, this was Sean's first reply to a long thread. If there was a magic bullet fix hopefully we would have found it by now. He stepped in and pointed out an alternate solution. We are all trying to help here.
Win7 may be built on top of older OS's, but something has clearly changed. Remember VA does not work in an "official" manor, instead we run around behind the scenes, hooking in at a low level. This makes us vulnerable to changes. The number of IDE, OS, or service pack specific bugs that I have seen, reproduced and reported is ample proof of this. There is a reason I have most Microsoft OS's running inside virtual machines, and am always jumping between them...
Now I know this is not a "good" answer, but remember, you are saying "VA does not work on an unfinished OS". Any work we do at this point *might* be wasted, since a fix might break again in the final release of win7. This is one of the known risks of working with and on an OS or IDE that is still a work in progress.
Remember when VS2008 came out? We provided support for VS2008 beta 2, and then VA stopped working in the official release of VS2008. Supporting the Beta does not mean you have successfully supported the final release *sigh* |
| Radu |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 05:12:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SvenC
Please try to understand us, who work with VC6 projects and VS200x as well, that it would be a very hard cut if VAX would not run with VC6 on Win7 any more.
And "Just run VC6 on a WinXP virtual machine" is not a really good answer as well: would you really like to work at the reduced VM speed yourself?
Not that I expect it matters to anyone from Whole Tomato, but there are two (additional) problems with running VS6 under an XP virtual machine in order to use VAX:
1. Testing/debugging (under Windows 7) applications built with VS6. Yes, we could use an XP VM to develop the application, and a separate W7 installation of VS6 to test the result; but it would make the whole experience quite painful (i.e. using VS6 without VAX once you've gotten used to it). See below why remote debug wouldn't work all that well, either.
2. Some of your customers (myself included) already run Windows in a virtual machine (in my case using VMware Fusion under Mac OS). This means we would have to maintain two separate Windows VMs - one specifically for VS6 + VAX and the other for the rest of the productive work we need to do under Windows. Plus, running two virtual machines concurrently on a laptop/notebook isn't something I would recommend to anyone (even with a 2.6 GHz dual-core CPU and 6 GB of RAM).
Radu
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| SvenC |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 03:38:08 AM
@feline: VC6 as an IDE is not supported by Microsoft anymore on *any* Windows version. So that argument sounds a bit weak to me when on the other side wholetomato says VAX is working with VC6. I would go for that argument if I had *any* other problems with running VC6 on Windows 7, but I haven't. Come on, at the end of the day Vista and Windows 7 are grand children of Windows NT with tighter security. There might be big changes for kernel/driver developers - but VC6 is just a user mode application!
@sean: I am a bit surprised to read how easily you point a well argumenting customer to your refund services *first* and only later try to give a small bit of hope for at least looking at the problem. The only reason I can think of for this kind of reaction is way too much pressure. I am sorry for that. But please try to stay positive with us, your customers.
I loved the wholetomato support for years because of great efforts and time of reaction. I was quite active in the first years I started using VAX and quieted a bit because I just do not find any issues any more - cool But this is really the first time that I stumble over a case where I do not feel treated well  . Please try to understand us, who work with VC6 projects and VS200x as well, that it would be a very hard cut if VAX would not run with VC6 on Win7 any more.
And "Just run VC6 on a WinXP virtual machine" is not a really good answer as well: would you really like to work at the reduced VM speed yourself? |
| mwb1100 |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 2:54:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by muttbaha
I'm not sure if this is caused by Windows 7's bug or 'feature (i.e., behavior change)', but if you study it now, you may have the chance to notify Microsoft and let them fix it (or let you know how to workaround it). But if you don't do it now, after RTM being signed off you'll be all on your own because MSFT won't change it.
I can't imagine that Microsoft would even look at the problem if it could only be demonstrated with VC6. VC6 is not supported by Microsoft on Vista or later - they aren't going to fix problems with it (especially this late in the Win7 cycle). I wouldn't be surprised if any help that the VAX devs get from MS is strictly by the kindness of someone at MS working 'off the clock' on it.
I support Whole Tomato's stance on this (even though I use VC6 for some projects). If it's reasonably easy to diagnose and fix, I'm sure that WT will make the fix. Until then, I'll run VC6 on a machine that's still running XP, or I'll set up a VM to host it.
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| feline |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 10:29:16 AM
How do you compare two bugs, and say which one is more important? This is a hard question to answer.
Hopefully we can all agree that "The IDE crashes and I loose work" or "The machine has a blue screen of death" are in the most important class of bugs.
VC6 under Win7, you are looking at an IDE that Microsoft does not support on an OS that is still a moving target. It is not straight forward to compare this to other important bugs. |
| muttbaha |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 10:00:16 AM
If it's unlikely that Microsoft will change/fix it, then I think there's also no need to wait for RTM because the situation is unlikely to change in RTM...
Anyway it's up to VA developers' decision. I'm just murmuring. |
| Radu |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 03:33:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by muttbaha
I'm not sure if this is caused by Windows 7's bug or 'feature (i.e., behavior change)', but if you study it now, you may have the chance to notify Microsoft and let them fix it (or let you know how to workaround it). But if you don't do it now, after RTM being signed off you'll be all on your own because MSFT won't change it.
Objectively speaking, it's unlikely for the Windows 7 development team to make any more (significant) changes to the Windows 7 codebase for the RTM. I would expect it's already pretty much sealed, except maybe for a few Ts and Is that may still need crossing/dotting.
Although I agree that this issue renders VAX unusable for VS6 under Windows 7 (and I would obviously wish it was fixed ASAP), I do agree with the proposed course of action - i.e. wait for the Windows 7 RTM and then diagnose/investigate the problem.
Regards,
Radu
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| muttbaha |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 01:33:19 AM
"unusable" sounds quite important, in comparison to most "bugs/defects/improvements".
I think the real question that Radu and me (and all the potential VS6 users who may upgrade to Windows 7) want to ask is, "why is this 'unusable' issue put in low priority (since it's claimed as 'no resource')?"
I'm not sure if this is caused by Windows 7's bug or 'feature (i.e., behavior change)', but if you study it now, you may have the chance to notify Microsoft and let them fix it (or let you know how to workaround it). But if you don't do it now, after RTM being signed off you'll be all on your own because MSFT won't change it. |
| sean |
Posted - Jul 14 2009 : 5:05:38 PM
Visual Assist does not work with VC6 on Win7.
We want to support vc6 on Win7 but don't have the resources to look into the problem at this time.
We don't want to say that it won't be supported unless we have gotten in there and found no solution to the problem. Hopefully, it will just be a quick fix.
We will dedicate time to evaluate the problem after Microsoft has announced that a final Win7 build is available.
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| feline |
Posted - Jul 14 2009 : 10:57:51 AM
Just to complicate matters a little more, I came across this today:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/microsoft-windows-7-hasnt-hit-rtm-yet.ars
there may yet be more changes to Windows 7 before the actual release version is produced. |
| Radu |
Posted - Jul 14 2009 : 05:02:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sean
If you would like to request a refund, you may do so by contacting the sales department via this page:
http://www.wholetomato.com/support/contact.asp
Thank you, Sean.
I obviously hope it will not come to this. It's not until the rest of the development team upgrades to Windows 7 that this will become a serious issue for us.
At this stage, I am the only one in the team using Windows 7. I have been using Windows 7 Beta since the beginning of the year without any problems. Unfortunately, I was forced to upgrade to the Release Candidate (because the Beta expired), and this is when I became affected by the problem.
I will try to plod along for the time being - I am using VS2008 to edit and VS6 to compile at this stage, but it's obviously very inconvenient. I don't think this workflow will be acceptable for the rest of the team.
All I can do at this stage is keep my fingers crossed and wish you good luck.
However, if there is anything you think I could help with (e.g. beta testing), don't hesitate to ask.
Regards,
Radu Carlan
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| sean |
Posted - Jul 14 2009 : 12:36:28 AM
Thanks for the advice Radu.
If you would like to request a refund, you may do so by contacting the sales department via this page:
http://www.wholetomato.com/support/contact.asp
|
| Radu |
Posted - Jul 13 2009 : 6:48:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by feline
When I first tried to get VC6 to install under Vista I ran into problems, and a quick web search reported that many people cannot get it to install at all. So the situation is not quite as clear cut as it might be.
I assume by "problems" you mean a warning message displayed by the operating system saying that VS6 is unsupported (or known to have problems) under Vista/7. However, once past this message, VS6 installs and runs without any problems (except that it needs to run with elevated privileges). The same problem (and warning) applies to VS2005, btw.
Now, VS6 may have runtime problems if doing Java or Web development, but for C++ development it is still a very capable IDE. I grant you that its C++ compiler is outdated and not fully standards-compliant, but for all the legacy C/C++ code out there that needs to be maintained and enhanced, VS6 is still an invaluable tool.
Having said all this, the issue is not whether or not you (or other people on the web) have had "problems" installing or using VS6 on Vista or Windows 7. That's not really your problem to fix or address. There are many more people who have installed and are using VS6 successfully under Vista (and also plenty who are doing the same on Windows 7).
So, the real issue is, does/will Visual Assist for VS6 work under Windows 7?
The right approach is, as you've already mentioned, to identify how many of your paying customers are (or will be) affected by this problem. I expect you already have a pretty accurate estimate of the number of VS6 users of Visual Assist. I would venture a guess that it's more than 50% of the total number of Visual Assist users. So, the only question is, how many of them will be upgrading to Windows 7? Granted, this is a more difficult question to answer.
However, having confirmed the problem, what you need to decide is whether you are going to be proactive or reactive regarding this issue. You can decide to wait until complaints start flooding in (i.e. reactive), or you can decide to pre-empt the issue by looking at it now (i.e. proactive).
Either way, I think you owe it to your paying customers to have an official position (i.e. public statement) regarding your plans for supporting VS6 under Windows 7.
I think many customers who have their maintenance renewal coming up would appreciate an upfront answer regarding this issue.
For example, the company I work for has just renewed (i.e. paid for) its yearly Visual Assist maintenance contract and, although it's only seven licences (which is probably insignificant for you), I can assure you we will not be renewing it anymore if Visual Assist does not work in VS6 under Windows 7. In fact, given that the front page of your website plainly states that Visual Assist works in VS6 (with no limitations), I think come end of this month, when Windows 7 is expected to be RTM and published to MSDN subscribers, my company will be entitled to a pro-rata refund on its yearly maintenance.
Regards,
Radu Carlan
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| feline |
Posted - Jul 13 2009 : 10:06:31 AM
We are aware of this issue, but have not made a final decision yet about this. Partly it depends on how hard the problem is to fix, and partly it depends on how many users this ends up effecting.
When I first tried to get VC6 to install under Vista I ran into problems, and a quick web search reported that many people cannot get it to install at all. So the situation is not quite as clear cut as it might be. |
| Radu |
Posted - Jul 13 2009 : 04:19:01 AM
Is there anything we (the paying customers) can do to make this a more urgent priority?
I understand that running VS6 on Windows 7 is pushing the limits but, supported or not by Microsoft, the reality is that VS6 runs just fine on Windows 7 (including in the x64 version). In fact, as far as I know, Microsoft does not support VS6 anymore, regardless of the operating system.
Be that as it may, I would venture a guess that there still is a very significant Visual Assist + VS6 user base - maybe even more significant than for VS2005/2008. Your excellent product has given VS6 a new lease on life and made it, in many ways, a worthy competitor to the more modern versions of Visual Studio. In fact, I believe Visual Assist has a much higher value for VS6 users than it has for users of VS2005/2008.
Whilst there may be more Windows XP users than Windows Vista users of Visual Assist at the moment, I think the uptake of Windows 7 in both groups will be quite rapid. Windows 7 is superior to Windows Vista in so many ways, that both XP and Vista users are likely to migrate en-masse.
I think you will be faced with increasing pressure from your users/customers regarding this problem in the months to come. And, when it's really going to hit, it will be more like a tsunami than a wave. I think it would be prudent to try to pre-empt the crisis as much as possible.
Regards,
Radu Carlan
|
| feline |
Posted - Jul 10 2009 : 3:40:23 PM
Unfortunately no progress is listed on this bug. It is being looked at, but it is not our most urgent priority at this time. |
| muttbaha |
Posted - Jul 09 2009 : 11:21:06 PM
Win7 RTM is going to be signed off (release to OEM) on 7/13, that is less than one week. Still no progrss in this issue? |
| muttbaha |
Posted - Jun 24 2009 : 12:02:04 AM
this issue is really killing me...
VC6 becomes totally unusable due to this bug... |
| SvenC |
Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 4:01:17 PM
Almost everywhere the same problems of these days which just don't give more than 24 hours |
| feline |
Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 12:06:23 PM
I have reproduced the problem here, so it is definitely confirmed, but I have no idea why this goes wrong.
Part of the problem is simply one of available resorces. There are lots of bugs competing for attention. |
| SvenC |
Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 10:08:54 AM
Could the VAX devs reproduce the problem as well and do they have an idea what causes this change in behavior and even better how to fix it?
Maybe a PM to myh0000 could clarify if his workaround could be applied? I assume you have his email address as he is a registered member. |
| feline |
Posted - Jun 11 2009 : 3:34:28 PM
I don't think we have heard anything yet. I am not seeing any mention of it anywhere. |
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