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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 31 2005 : 3:15:25 PM
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When I used VA 3.0, the "completion listboxes" would open with a simple TAB and this is how I got use to coding. Is it true that these can now (VAX) ONLY be opened with CTRL+SPACE?? That seems like a bit of a drastic change for not having an option to configure it back to the old way.
I know that you are giving some new "suggestion listbox", but it is never right for me. With the projects I work on, I rarely call the exact same function more than once or twice during a session, and these suggestions seemed to be based on frequency of use (useless for me).
It bothers me enough that I avoided VAX for the longest time. I'd like to use your new product if there was some way for it to support what it's predecessor got me so use to.
All I'm asking for is a simple option to change it from CTRL+SPACE to TAB...please. |
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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2005 : 4:50:35 PM
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You are correct in that very early versions of VA let you force open a completion listbox with Tab. Your only choice today is Ctrl+Space, or whatever you assign as a shortcut to Edit.CompleteWord.
We let you open with Tab prior to the existence of Intellisense. The way Tab worked was fairly slick in VC++ 5.0. Then, MS introduced Intellisense in VC++ 6.0 and we allowed Tab and/or Ctrl+Space. Things just got ugly trying to differentiate real tabs, Tab to open, Ctrl+Space and Edit.CompleteWord. We were forced to abandon Tab to make life simpler for everyone. |
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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 1:33:03 PM
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| Then can you add a configuration to open the Completion listbox when it would normally open the Suggestion listbox? I wouldn't have a problem with the Suggestions if it included what I was actually typing everytime (which is what I get from the Completion lists). What annoys me is that it looks like a completion listbox (except for the ? icons), but it isn't necessarily everything available to me with the partial word that I've typed. |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 1:51:20 PM
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in VA options you can turn off the suggestion lists entirely, which should help you:
VA options -> text editor -> suggestions -> display suggestion lists |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2005 : 11:12:30 AM
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Yes, I can do that, but that is not what I was asking for.
Can you add a configuration to display Completion Lists instead of Suggestion Lists, please? It doesn't seem like that difficult of a feature to add.
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Edited by - bksheppard on Apr 04 2005 11:34:08 AM |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2005 : 2:33:09 PM
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the problem with adding options to VA is that the developers then have to make this option work in each of the IDE's. in a normal application adding another option is normally fairly minor.
however due to the way VA interacts with the IDE, without the IDE's knowledge each option entails a large amount of work. i have had the same general conversation with support myself before now. as a result of this whole tomato are very loath to add further options.
have you looked into binding an alternate key press to Edit.CompleteWord ? |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2005 : 6:01:47 PM
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I'm sorry, I shouldn't tell you what is difficult for you to add to your own product.
I just assumed that the VAX Options dialog was created/maintained by your company and your code. I also assumed that the Suggestion list is opened by your code also. If my assumptions were correct, it would seem simple to add a boolean checkbox to your own dialog. Then on the event that normally opens you Suggestion list now, adding a check for this boolean value and open the correct list accordingly. |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2005 : 2:51:14 PM
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personally i don't know the full details of the code, but i have had similar conversations myself with support. from the outside adding another option often does sound like a reasonable idea 
if the code worked in a straight forward manor, with each feature only being written and implemented once then what you say would be quite correct. the options dialog its self is not a serious problem.
the problem is that in order to work VA is working via a "maze" of hooks into the IDE, so the same feature ends up being hooked into the IDE many times, in different places. the code has been described as "difficult" 
beyond this whole tomato have taken the design decision to try and keep the number of options as small as possible, so that the software simply "works".
have you looked into using some key other than tab to trigger a completion listbox? as it stands you are the only person looking for this option. |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2005 : 6:08:36 PM
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I'm not even discussing TAB anymore...I just want the completion listbox to show up instead of the suggestion listbox. I was trying to compromise and forget the whole keybinding thing since you said that was not possible.
It only frustrates me because you won't even consider making this an official feature request to even give the implementers a chance at allowing/denying it. I feel like I'm getting the runaround. |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2005 : 3:41:00 PM
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i think we are talking at cross purposes. you can assign a keyboard shortcut in the IDE to bring up the completion listbox. if you do this then when you press this keyboard shortcut you get the VA enhanced completion listbox.
i was wondering if this would be sufficient for now. if this is not going to work then i can put in a case, but at the moment it is unlikely to be actioned in the near future. hence i am wondering if there is a good workaround that you can use instead. |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2005 : 11:13:09 AM
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I understand all the keyboard shortcut options available to me, so as far as workarounds go, I will use them the best I can.
Yes, I would like someone to look into the "completion instead of suggestion listbox option" idea, for those who find no value in the suggestions. If it takes a while for them to look into the possibility...well, at least you gave it your best.
Thank you. |
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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2005 : 10:46:57 AM
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If we understand you correctly, we assume you want a "floating completion listbox" -- a list of all completions all the time, as you type.
We've tried this several times internally. It never provided much value. We kept be distracted by lists that were much longer than our suggestion lists.
One thing about suggestions, assuming you are using a relatively recent build, is that they get smarter as you edit a file. As well, the smarts remain from one instance to another. |
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bksheppard
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2005 : 4:33:08 PM
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If the list behaved like your suggestion list does now, it should filter down to a reasonable list of possibilities after 4 or 5 letters.
The suggestion list only works for projects where you call the same list of routines more than once, and they don't start with the same group of letters. Maybe my projects a worst case scenario for your suggestion lists. For example:
I write API adaptors the majority of the time. They allow for a program that has been compiled to use interface A to be able to use a module that exposes interface B. Most of the work I do is wrapping C interfaces with C++ classes. The C interfaces typically denote their routine lists using the first 3-5 letters of the routine name. One example could be:
MYAPIOpenConnection, MYAPICloseConnection, MYAPIQueryInfo, MYAPISubmitData, ...
I will only wrap each of these routines once. Which means that the only routines that are suggested to me when I type "MYAPI" are the ones I'll never use again. If instead, it was a completion list, typing "MYAPI" would give me the complete API listing for me to choose from.
See what I mean? |
Edited by - bksheppard on Apr 09 2005 4:35:01 PM |
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Stephen
Tomato Guru
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2005 : 04:57:53 AM
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| Turn shorthand and acronyms on. Then you can just type moc, mcc, mqi, msd etc. and you'll probably end up with what you want. |
Stephen Turner
ClickTracks http://www.clicktracks.com/
Winner: ClickZ's Best Web Analytics Tool 2003 & 2004
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Stephen
Tomato Guru
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2005 : 05:04:24 AM
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Also, I think you're confused about suggestion lists. They have a bias in favour of words you've typed recently, but they are willing to suggest other words too. So when you reach the first character after MYAPI, the list should filter sensibly.
Your problem is that there are so many symbols beginning with MYAPI that, if you only type MYAPI, there is no good way to choose between them. A suggestion box guesses and maybe gets it wrong. But a completion box lists all of them and you end up with too many to choose between. In either case, your best choice is to keep on typing. But this is exactly the problem that shorthand and acronyms are designed to solve. You don't need to start with MYAPI, you can type some more distinctive sections from the middle of the word. |
Stephen Turner
ClickTracks http://www.clicktracks.com/
Winner: ClickZ's Best Web Analytics Tool 2003 & 2004
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WannabeeDeveloper
Tomato Guru
Germany
775 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2005 : 05:43:11 AM
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| bksheppard, instead of typing MYAPI, try MCC (should suggest "MYAPICloseConnection") or MQI (should suggest "MYAPIQueryInfo"). I know it is hard at the beginning, but once you get used to it, you'll miss it on any IDE without VAX... |
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koushikks
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2005 : 1:15:12 PM
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I have similar issues ... The sceen shot will make is more clear.
I am trying to type "m_tbbRedo". The suggestions are probably ok in the first case. In the second and third case it should show the "Redo" but it doesnt.
This can be fixed by making the suggestions better. If this cannot be done then I would want that to be replaced by the completion list (an option to show the completion list instead of the suggestion list as mentioned by bksheppard) so that works right.
I have seen cases where the suggestion list doesnt show what I want even when I have typed it fully. Which makes me think that I dont have that variable declared and I have to do a find to make sure that is available or type the "." in which case i will get my completion list or hit Ctrl-Tab to get that list. What we need is some to to get the variable without typing the extra Ctrl-Tab or going all the way and finishing it and typeing a '.'
Thank you. |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2005 : 2:55:33 PM
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you have linked to an image stored on your local hard drive, which i of course cannot view.
i can pass on any sensible suggestions for making the suggestion lists better, but personally i find them quite good. VAX cannot actually read my mind, so all it can do is guess at what i am doing. often it is quite close.
if you are using local variables have you turned on showing local variables in bold? also it is worth watching VAX's wizard bar. with the code:
int nFred;
nFred = 3;
nFred|
with the caret here (in red) "nFred" was not shown as bold, but the wizard bar was showing me details of the definition of this variable, even though i could still be half way through typing a longer variable name. |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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koushikks
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2005 : 4:06:36 PM
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I am reposting it with the right image link ... Thanks for the replies.
I have similar issues ... The sceen shot will make is more clear.
I am trying to type "m_tbbRedo". The suggestions are probably ok in the first case. In the second and third case it should show the "Redo" but it doesnt.
This can be fixed by making the suggestions better. If this cannot be done then I would want that to be replaced by the completion list (an option to show the completion list instead of the suggestion list as mentioned by bksheppard) so that works right.
I have seen cases where the suggestion list doesnt show what I want even when I have typed it fully. Which makes me think that I dont have that variable declared and I have to do a find to make sure that is available or type the "." in which case i will get my completion list or hit Ctrl-Tab to get that list. What we need is some to to get the variable without typing the extra Ctrl-Tab or going all the way and finishing it and typeing a '.'
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koushikks
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2005 : 10:54:54 AM
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If you look in the first case ... the suggestions does not know anything so its ok.
In the second case, the suggestions should show "m_tbbRedo" and everything starting with "m_tbbR" (there are 4 of them - see last picture) because we have typed "m_tbbR" but lets assume that it did get it but since it shows only 4 it missed it out.
In the third case, there is no excuse for now showing "m_tbbRedo" because it is displaying only one ... but there are 4 which start with "m_tbbRe".
Hope you can understand my point. I would suggest that it be added as a bug and get fixed but if its too complex to implement in the suggest list please add the option of displaying the "completion list" instead of the suggest list. |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2005 : 1:53:52 PM
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interesting screen shots. i can see what you are saying, and most of what you are getting at.
firstly a suggestion, try typing "m_redo" and see what happens. in your VAX options i suspect you have both "Allow acronyms" and "Allow shorthand" (text editor -> listboxes) turned on. with these turned on you have told VAX that you *will* miss out letters when typing names, so it is factoring this into its guessing. these options do take getting used to, and they generated quite a bit of debate when they were introduced, but overall everyone seems to agree that they are a massive improvement, once they have got the hang of them.
turning to specifics, have you recently used m_tbbRedo in your code? VAX is allowing for you meaning m_tbb*r (case insensitive) so its suggestions are based on this, plus what is going on in the surrounding code. it is biased towards suggesting variables and functions that you have recently used, which makes sense most of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by koushikks
I have seen cases where the suggestion list doesnt show what I want even when I have typed it fully. Which makes me think that I dont have that variable declared and I have to do a find to make sure that is available or type the "." in which case i will get my completion list or hit Ctrl-Tab to get that list.
i can see this being a problem, but you have to remember that the suggestions lists, by their very nature, are not guaranteed to show you every item.
from the screen shots i do not see any clear evidence that the suggestion listboxes are actually wrong, they are just not doing what you expected. if you are sure they are wrong, then why?
the reason i am reluctant to put in the feature request to go straight to completion listboxes when ever a suggestion listbox would appear is that VAX tries to keep options to a bare minimum, since adding even one extra option is a *lot* of code overhead, due to how VAX has to be written. also i believe that very few users would benefit from this option. hopefully you can see my point here. |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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koushikks
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 11:02:14 AM
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I tried your suggestion. Here is how it went.
I changed my options and removed acronyms and shorthand. I dont use acronyms at all but I do use shorthand once in a while but it should never take precedence over the exact characters. eg: m_red should return m_Redefine first rather than m_tbbRedo.
With this set of options I get the exact same results. (I did do a restart to make sure that was not the problem)
I change my options again and added shorthand. (Did a restart)
Now my suggestions are way off.
I hope you understand I am not just talking about this one case. I see it happening all the time. I will try a little bit more with the acronyms turned off and see if its any better for me. Maybe the suggest engine is written with a different priority order. I would make it so that it first finds the exact character sequence, then use the acronyms and then use the shorthand. |
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koushikks
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 11:06:19 AM
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I tried your suggestion. Here is how it went.
I changed my options and removed acronyms and shorthand. I dont use acronyms at all but I do use shorthand once in a while but it should never take precedence over the exact characters. eg: m_red should return m_Redefine first rather than m_tbbRedo.
With this set of options I get the exact same results. (I did do a restart to make sure that was not the problem)
I change my options again and added shorthand. (Did a restart)
Now my suggestions are way off.
I hope you understand I am not just talking about this one case. I see it happening all the time. I will try a little bit more with the acronyms turned off and see if its any better for me. Maybe the suggest engine is written with a different priority order. I would make it so that it first finds the exact character sequence, then use the acronyms and then use the shorthand. |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
19014 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 4:03:54 PM
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strange, that is not the effect i had expected. given what is happening here i have put in a request, but i would not expect this to be addressed to soon. in the mean time it may be worth looking into shorthand and acronyms a bit more. with time most people do get used to these and find them very helpful.
case=712 |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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