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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 27 2005 : 1:53:10 PM
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http://www.wholetomato.com/downloads/VA_X_Setup1299.exe
Fixes described at:
http://www.wholetomato.com/support/history.html
Reset of VS.NET not required. No changes to code templates.
Build 1299 is the last build for users with Visual Assist .NET 7.1 and Visual Assist 6.0 keys. Users with these keys have received updates for one year or more. Users with these keys will need to renew technical support to install build 1300.
Users with Visual Assist X keys receive updates until expiration of support coverage. Check the About node of our options dialog for the date of your expiration. |
Edited by - support on May 13 2005 3:19:18 PM |
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SvenC
Tomato Guru
Germany
339 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2005 : 3:00:01 PM
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Hmm 1)
I get to the page not found page when trying to download 1299.
Hmm 2)
Do I understand that correctly that I will have to pay something to get bug fixes downloaded and installed which are released a year after I bought the original licence?
Paying for new features is obviously correct but paying for a bug fix seems not too fair!
Bye,
SvenC |
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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2005 : 3:38:28 PM
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1) We fixed the link.
2) Your understanding is correct. You pay for builds released more than a year after your original purchase, even if the builds fix bugs that have been around for a long time.
Separating bug fixes and minor feature improvements is not practical, especially for small companies that issues builds fairly often. (We do acknowledge our porting to VS2005 has slowed the release of builds recently.) It is simply too difficult to keep every build, then fix a bug in every build in which it occurs. One other option is to hold back feature improvements, even minor ones, until a major upgrade which we require you to pay. We prefer to fix everything and improve everything as quickly as we can.
We've always stated the terms of our support; we just never charged for it. Unfortunately, the realities of supporting so many Microsoft IDEs and such complex products (ours and the IDEs) make it impossible to move as quickly as we want without the extra revenue. |
Edited by - support on Mar 27 2005 3:43:19 PM |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
18939 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2005 : 11:05:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SvenC
Hmm 2)
Do I understand that correctly that I will have to pay something to get bug fixes downloaded and installed which are released a year after I bought the original licence?
Paying for new features is obviously correct but paying for a bug fix seems not too fair!
this happens with many different software products from many different companies. at least Whole Tomato do issue bug fix builds and release new features during the 1 year period, unlike certain other companies i have dealt with *sigh* |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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SvenC
Tomato Guru
Germany
339 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 01:36:49 AM
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| What will the upgrade or bug fix cost be as my support has ended on 26th of march. |
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SBrennecke
Junior Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 02:21:02 AM
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I just want to speak up and say this:
I've been a Visual Assist user for several years now (seems silly that I'm still identified as a "New User" just because I haven't posted that much). It has been worth every penny I paid for it, and then some. Even with the many minor bugs that remain, it is well worth the purchase price. And if it takes another small payment from me to help support the continued development, I'm happy to pay it. |
Scot T Brennecke
InnoVisionLogic Development |
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SvenC
Tomato Guru
Germany
339 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 03:35:44 AM
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Hi SBrennecke,
"another *small* payment" has this undefined word small in it ;)
Paying 49$ (the current upgrade price) every year to get bug fixes is not everyone's definition of small payment.
Let's see what the support renewal fee will be...
Nevertheless I am quite interested in the VS2005 port - any beta builds available? (I use VS2005 Feb CTP)
Bye,
SvenC |
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SvenC
Tomato Guru
Germany
339 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 06:59:06 AM
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Just saw in the general forum that the renewal will cost 59$  Too much for bug fixes in my opinion.
You might scare new developers off with this approach, when they see that its 129$ now (ok not now but from second of May) and 59$ every year.
I preferred your former way where you at some point of time said "VA4.1 is now a stable build we only work on the new version 6". That gave me at least the feeling that as long as the version I use is "current" I will get bug fixes. The only need to pay is when I want that new version.
This would also force the WholeTomato team to be innovative with new features to make buying a new version worthwhile 
Now you could decide to have a version 8.0 for two or three years and to get bug fixes for that version without any new features I would have to pay twice or thrice. |
Edited by - SvenC on Mar 29 2005 07:00:25 AM |
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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 10:05:56 AM
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VA X is an add-in to another product. It's seems a bit silly to hold features back only to find some of them in the other product. We believe we serve our customers better by releasing features as soon as they are ready.
Since the next build (or two) of VA X will work with VS2005, you might think of your renewal as an upgrade. |
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SvenC
Tomato Guru
Germany
339 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 11:01:03 AM
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So a VS2005 version is around the corner? Nice!
To me it seems a bit silly that if person A buys version x on 1st of June and person B that same version on 1st of July, person B will get the June of next year bug fixes (for free) and person A not (for free).
I see your point in the problem of distinguishing added features or removed bugs and that you can't manage more than one shipping version of VA. But do you really think that you will add at least one new major feature every year? As I said: no problem to upgrade from 7.1 to 10.1 to 11. But I would expect to get bug fixes for 11 until you release version 12.
Another but: if I am the only one complaining about this support renewal thing feel free to ignore me...
Thanks for a great product,
SvenC |
Edited by - SvenC on Mar 29 2005 11:01:33 AM |
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
18939 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 2:30:15 PM
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SvenC i do understand your point, and it is a good point. however think back to the difference between VA 10.0 and VA 10.1 
it took me a while to really start using shorthand and acronyms, but having got the knack i would say they are a major step forward. to me this helps to show the value of getting new features as soon as possible.
in broader terms i am not wild about paying each year for new builds, effectively a subscription model, but there is one other software company i have an ongoing subscription with. for me each years new features and bug fixes have to be worth the money.
if all i got from Whole Tomato were bug fixes i would tend to agree with you. however over the time i have been using VAX i have seen enough increase in value to be worth it, for me at least. i should point out that i am paying to use VA at work out of my own pocket, since programming without it is simply to painful 
i am sure you are not the only one who will comment (and complain ;) ) about this. seeing the "fun" WT have making VAX work properly in three (soon to be four) different IDE's probably helps my perspective on this to *shrug* |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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selmo
Junior Member
19 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2005 : 5:01:05 PM
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Well, I guess I'll say I'm not real happy about a subscription model either, but I guess whatever they gotta do to stay in business. I'd much rather have them be too expensive for my tastes than non-existent.
As a user of good ole VC6, I don't care much about .Net or support for 2005 at this point. I assume that at some point, if and when I do upgrade, I'll need to pay for an upgrade to VA as well. There are still bugs that annoy and confound me in 1299, bugs that have been around for a LONG time now, and I'm not thrilled that those will not be fixed unless I pay more $$. Philosophically and in an ideal world, I should have an expectation that software should work as promised and as I paid for. New features and support for new development environments are valid for paid upgrades, but expecting users to pay for bug fixes is basically unethical.
But I'll balance that against the fact I guess I got a couple new features gratis since I bought VA...although I don't really care about those as much as some of the annoying bugs being fixed, honestly. Sure, VA has done some value add, but I would prefer to have free bug fixes and have the freedom to choose if the offered added features are worth paying more for. In many cases, those added features or other developement environments have done nothing for me, and while bugs that affect me daily remain unfixed. Since some of those bugs have been so long outstanding, I don't feel that optimistic about having to pay for bugs, and then continue to see them not be fixed. At $59 a year, I'll probably choose to stay with 1299 and not upgrade, suffering through the bugs, until either a) I upgrade to 2005 /.NET or possibly vaguely b) WT introduces a killer feature I must have. I guess if I felt that 1299 was rock solid and fixed the problems that plague me, I would be more comfortable with being stuck with it.
Looking back, I probably would not have paid for VA in the first place had this policy been enforce at the time. At this point, I'm glad I did, but that would have been yet another barrier during that value decision-making time. Just FYI.
Do what you gotta do, but not everyone is going to like it or think it's fair. :) Ultimately it's most important that development continue, and many people, including myself, just won't get the benefits of that unless they're willing to pay more $$.
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Stephen
Tomato Guru
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2005 : 04:15:52 AM
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| I think people would be more receptive to a subscription model if there weren't so many bugs that have been reported a year or more ago, cause daily annoyance, and don't appear to have had any progress made on them. At the moment, the perception is that the charge is for bug fixes rather than new features, but I think this could be avoided if some of the long-standing bugs were fixed first. |
Stephen Turner
ClickTracks http://www.clicktracks.com/
Winner: ClickZ's Best Web Analytics Tool 2003 & 2004
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Edited by - Stephen on Mar 30 2005 05:27:16 AM |
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schoenherr
Tomato Guru
Germany
160 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2005 : 04:41:57 AM
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stephen, i totally agree with you.
i think wholetomate will have a much smaller amount of bug reports in the near future, because most of the beta testers active in this forum will not spend the money to get new versions. Saying this i also say: Good By, See you next year (if there is a "killer feature", as selmo said)! |
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Stephen
Tomato Guru
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2005 : 05:34:30 AM
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| By the way, here at ClickTracks, we let all users download the latest version, and they therefore get all bug fixes for free, but the new features don't appear if they haven't purchased a subscription. This works well for us, although I realise it may not be practical for Whole Tomato's code. |
Stephen Turner
ClickTracks http://www.clicktracks.com/
Winner: ClickZ's Best Web Analytics Tool 2003 & 2004
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ether
Tomato Guru
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2005 : 09:58:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by selmo
Well, I guess I'll say I'm not real happy about a subscription model either, but I guess whatever they gotta do to stay in business. I'd much rather have them be too expensive for my tastes than non-existent.
As a user of good ole VC6, I don't care much about .Net or support for 2005 at this point. I assume that at some point, if and when I do upgrade, I'll need to pay for an upgrade to VA as well. There are still bugs that annoy and confound me in 1299, bugs that have been around for a LONG time now, and I'm not thrilled that those will not be fixed unless I pay more $$. Philosophically and in an ideal world, I should have an expectation that software should work as promised and as I paid for. New features and support for new development environments are valid for paid upgrades, but expecting users to pay for bug fixes is basically unethical.
But I'll balance that against the fact I guess I got a couple new features gratis since I bought VA...although I don't really care about those as much as some of the annoying bugs being fixed, honestly. Sure, VA has done some value add, but I would prefer to have free bug fixes and have the freedom to choose if the offered added features are worth paying more for. In many cases, those added features or other developement environments have done nothing for me, and while bugs that affect me daily remain unfixed. Since some of those bugs have been so long outstanding, I don't feel that optimistic about having to pay for bugs, and then continue to see them not be fixed. At $59 a year, I'll probably choose to stay with 1299 and not upgrade, suffering through the bugs, until either a) I upgrade to 2005 /.NET or possibly vaguely b) WT introduces a killer feature I must have. I guess if I felt that 1299 was rock solid and fixed the problems that plague me, I would be more comfortable with being stuck with it.
Looking back, I probably would not have paid for VA in the first place had this policy been enforce at the time. At this point, I'm glad I did, but that would have been yet another barrier during that value decision-making time. Just FYI.
Do what you gotta do, but not everyone is going to like it or think it's fair. :) Ultimately it's most important that development continue, and many people, including myself, just won't get the benefits of that unless they're willing to pay more $$.
My God, I don't think I could have said it any better myself. My coworkers and I have been struggly with lockups that they can't reproduce (and will not fix) since VAX came to be. I cannot recomend to my purchase department that we should feed them more money while we continue to be plagued by the long time existing bugs (it's bad business).
Think of it this way, would you keep taking your vehicle back to the same mechanic who, when fixing something else or adding new performace parts (features), causes more problems that you now must pay him for to get fixed? I would think not. I would think that you would expect that mechanic to fix his newly created problems free of charge until all problems created by him are gone. So, why should we feel different about VAX? |
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asmout
Ketchup Master
58 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2005 : 06:55:48 AM
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quote:
I think people would be more receptive to a subscription model if there weren't so many bugs that have been reported a year or more ago, cause daily annoyance, and don't appear to have had any progress made on them.
I totally agree with Stephen over this. What is the point of buying a support contract when there is no evidence that long standing bugs and annoyances are being worked on. I don't care about new features. Please stop producing new features and start improving the quality of the features the product is supposed to have already.
Until WT demonstrate some improvement in dealing with their outstanding bugs, I cannot in all conscience recommend to our IT department that we upgrade our 35-user site license. |
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willdean
Tomato Guru
134 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 02:20:30 AM
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I suspect that WTS is defunct, actually. I've never understood its structure, but I assume that the key people have all left now.
This is probably why after months of waiting for bugfixes, we got a (buggy) tip of the day splash-screen.
It's all over, I think. That's a shame, because in its prime, VA was a fantastic product. It's always sad to see development stop on a product that you like.
Let's just hope that the Intellisense in VS2005 is 'good enough', and that the add-in architecture lets us put some of other more useful bits together relatively simply. |
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LarryLeonard
Tomato Guru
USA
1041 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 06:54:52 AM
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What a very odd thing to say... Or am I just being naive in assuming that there haven't been any bugfixes for VAX because they're working on the 2005 IDE?
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SvenC
Tomato Guru
Germany
339 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 07:43:12 AM
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| I prefer the VS 2005 explanation - fingers crossed for build 1300 |
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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 11:49:08 AM
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Although still a small company, we are far from defunct. Two big detractors for us are vs2005 and support renewals. The latter requires new keygen code.
We can only say we appreciate your patience. We will return to our standard mode of operation soon.
On a positive note, one of our part-time developers has just retired from his "real job" and joined us full-time. |
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Uniwares
Tomato Guru
Portugal
2321 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2005 : 12:03:03 PM
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That is really good to hear. But I must say that I also somehow miss the time when bugs where actually fixed.
I didnt check lately how many of the bugs I have reported in the last 18 months are already fixed, but last time I did it was scary. Too many issues still open.
I fully understand how difficult it is to maintain a product like VA/VAX and how demanding developers as clients are. Am bearing similar every day too.
Yet, releasing new features, when old ones are still not working is the best way to loose a customers trust.
Especially with a fine tuned and carefully placed tool like VAX it is fatal to have bugs in key features, the customers immediately loose interest because the product seems imature.
I hope that VAX will one day again reach the level of superiority it had once, with all its features and functions. Good luck guys. |
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ivan
Ketchup Master
Russia
75 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2005 : 07:11:32 AM
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I bought the bundle (VA 7.1 + 6.0) about one and a half year ago.
Two things that have been bothering me the most since the release of v10 are:
1. Extremely poor handling of STL. (funny thing is, this 'bug' has been around for, like, forever, and it didn't even make it into 'known problems' page)
2. Suggestions stop appearing sometimes (no I can't reproduce it, but it seems to happen after an hour or so of using the IDE - takes an IDE restart to reset it). Autocompletion via ctrl+space works but no listboxes are displayed. I reinstalled my OS and everything from the scratch a week ago - it's still there. And inability of a customer to reproduce a bug doesn't it make it any less of a bug. Or does it?
The features that have been added to VA X (e.g. acronyms and shorthands) are quite useful, but they aren't the key features. And after more than a year of using the product I still have to restart the IDE every hour or so to make the *key* features work again.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I think it's a fantastic product but I'm not buying any upgrades until there's a shift in WT policy towards fixing the old bugs before introducing new ones and cutting off the support at the same time. |
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Stephen
Tomato Guru
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2005 : 09:52:33 AM
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| While agreeing with the general sentiment, I must disagree with one thing. To me, acronyms and shorthand are key features. They've become an essential part of my productivity. |
Stephen Turner
ClickTracks http://www.clicktracks.com/
Winner: ClickZ's Best Web Analytics Tool 2003 & 2004
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ivan
Ketchup Master
Russia
75 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2005 : 10:11:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen
While agreeing with the general sentiment, I must disagree with one thing. To me, acronyms and shorthand are key features. They've become an essential part of my productivity.
That's not what I meant by key features. When you can't see the listbox with the current selection AND can only use ctrl+space to complete (not enter or tab like you're probably used to; using enter or tab results in well, enter or tab, whether it's wfmoe or waitformultipleobjectse you get instead of the expected WaitForMultipleObjectsEx isn't that important) you realize that acronyms/shorthands are as unusable without the key features (in the sense I meant) working properly as any other useful improvement. |
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support
Whole Tomato Software
5566 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2005 : 11:30:32 AM
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quote:
2. Suggestions stop appearing sometimes (no I can't reproduce it, but it seems to happen after an hour or so of using the IDE - takes an IDE restart to reset it). Autocompletion via ctrl+space works but no listboxes are displayed.
You are welcome to open a new thread for this problem. In it, explain what you mean when you say, "ctrl+space works but no listboxes are displayed." (Send us a small screen shot and we will post it with your thread.) |
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ivan
Ketchup Master
Russia
75 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2005 : 12:14:09 PM
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Well, it has been reported before.
http://forum.wholetomato.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3165
My first post in that topic.
ctrl+space works means that it completes the partial name. no listboxes are displayed means exactly that. no listboxes are displayed. I don't know how can I say it more clearly ;)
Well, I'll try to explain in details.
Suppose I want to type WaitForSingleObject.
Normal behaviour:
I type a few letters (e.g. waitforsi), then a listbox appears with identifiers that contain those letters (in case acronyms/shorthands are turned on, with more identifiers, doesn't matter). I press tab, waitforsi gets changed to WaitForSingleObject. Victory.
Screwed up behaviour:
I type a few letters (e.g. waitforsi), nothing happens. No listboxes are displayed. I press tab, I get waitforsi<tab>. If I press enter I get waitforsi<enter>. If I press ctrl+space, I get WaitForSingleObject. If I type 'waitforsingleobject' (in lowercase) and press 'space', or comma, or whatever it's not getting corrected. I have all the relevant options on, so it's not one of those "please check if you have 'display suggestion boxes and accept with tab' turned on" cases.
Change from normal to screwed-up behaviour happens approximately once per hour. Change back happens when the IDE has been restarted.
P.S. In the topic I posted a link to I said that it wasn't bothering me much with the recent (at the time of writing) builds. With the recent (now) builds it happens much more often. |
Edited by - ivan on Apr 03 2005 12:19:27 PM |
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selmo
Junior Member
19 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2005 : 03:53:18 AM
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For what it's worth, I get this behavior too, and it's a pita....but frankly, my enthusiasm for reporting this and other bugs has declined since a) they tend to go unfixed indefinitely anyway so why bother, and now b) there won't be any further bug fixes unless you pay more. Found a bug in 1299? Too bad...pay more or lump it. So feh, why waste the time typing up the bug report?
I hate it when I see this happen to a good product. Makes me sad. |
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weshunt
Junior Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2005 : 1:37:53 PM
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I agree completely with this thread. It seems a couple years ago fixes got made, but lately I've lost heart in reporting bugs, because not only are they going unfixed, they are going unanswered. I understand the VA team may be small and very busy supporting multiple IDEs. I also like the new features, but I'd rather the old features worked as advertised.
Even if I fork out the money for an upgrade (because I'm hooked on VA and probably couldn't live without it), I won't necessarily be happy with the policy.
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feline
Whole Tomato Software
United Kingdom
18939 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2005 : 3:14:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ivan
Well, it has been reported before.
http://forum.wholetomato.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3165
since people stopped replying to this thread it slipped my mind. could you post any clues you might have to this thread?
you say that some versions seem to be more prone to this effect than others. do you know the versions of VA that seem to be least effected by this? perhaps that would give support a clue.
most people don't have this problem. that does not make the problem go away, but it does make it hard to debug. |
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness |
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SBrennecke
Junior Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2005 : 3:20:28 PM
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OK... What a bunch of whining! Are most of you from socialist countries where the government provides most necessities and earning an income isn't critical? These people have to eat, and I don't think their name means they eat whole tomatoes from their garden. As a programmer, I fully understand the need to charge for a product, especially if I'm having to spend a lot of time working on it. It doesn't make sense to buy a product, and expect it to be perfect. Nor does it make sense to expect free upgrades forever. Yes, I expect bugs to be fixed, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that a product that does so much for so many different IDEs could ever be bug free. The price I paid many years ago has been more than compensated by the benefit I've had daily from VA being installed. Yes, it has some problems. But no, I wouldn't turn off VA and do without it. And no, I wouldn't forego buying it all over again if I had to, even with the existing bugs.
It seems you think these guys will keep giving you something for nothing if you whine loud and long about it.
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Scot T Brennecke
InnoVisionLogic Development |
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